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Heathcliff : Garfield :: Hydrox : Oreo

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Heathcliff : Garfield :: Hydrox : Oreo

Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:03 am

The comic strip Heathcliff's relationship to Garfield is, in my judgment, very similar to the relationship between Hydrox cookies and Oreo cookies.

Do you know what I mean by that? And can you think of other good examples?
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Postby Ken Jennings » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:08 am

I'm having a hard time thinking of good pairs with a similar relationship. The NIT tournament : the NCAA tournament maybe, but that's not a real strong example.
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Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:25 am

Yeah, it might be tricky to think of good ones. Here are some attempts that I'm not quite so happy about:

Grey Cup : Super Bowl -- that one may cause some of my fellow Canadians to take offence ;)

Dr. Pepper : Coca-Cola -- in my opinion, Dr. Pepper doesn't occupy quite the right part of our collective consciousness for that one to really work.
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Postby Mahatma » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:01 am

What about RC : Coca-Cola?

I'm sure there are some out there who actually prefer RC. Possibly.
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Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:10 am

Mahatma wrote:What about RC : Coca-Cola?

I'm sure there are some out there who actually prefer RC. Possibly.


According to Wikipedia, RC : Coca-Cola doesn't work.

What I actually had in mind was a combination of two criteria. One is a little subjective, but one is very quantifiable.
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Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:14 am

Not sure what you folks think of this proposed example:

"Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails : "Hurt" by Johnny Cash??
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Postby Ken Jennings » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:30 am

skullturfq wrote:Not sure what you folks think of this proposed example:

"Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails : "Hurt" by Johnny Cash??


I am against it! (Well, you asked.) The most famous thing about Cash's "Hurt" at the time was the KOOKY irony of him doing a NIN song! Do the young people today really not know it was a cover?
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Postby guidedbyalan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:32 am

This work?

Bill Hicks: Denis Leary

I fear it works all too well.
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Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:46 am

guidedbyalan wrote:This work?

Bill Hicks: Denis Leary

I fear it works all too well.


Not bad. As always, the subjective part is debatable. Possibly the relevant parts of Leary's standup are more well-known to more people than the corresponding pieces by Hicks. However, for this to be a really stellar example, it would help if people thought of Hicks' work as some kind of inferior imitation of Leary's, as opposed to merely being unaware of Hicks.
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Postby guidedbyalan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:06 pm

skullturfq wrote:
guidedbyalan wrote:This work?

Bill Hicks: Denis Leary

I fear it works all too well.


Not bad. As always, the subjective part is debatable. Possibly the relevant parts of Leary's standup are more well-known to more people than the corresponding pieces by Hicks. However, for this to be a really stellar example, it would help if people thought of Hicks' work as some kind of inferior imitation of Leary's, as opposed to merely being unaware of Hicks.


Right; I didn't realize you were factoring in that second criterion.

Come to think of it, I read rumours of a Heathcliff film lately, and two of the three people who commented on the wire story called Heathcliff a Garfield rip-off. And so it continues.
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Postby skullturfq » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:15 pm

Internally, I was wrestling with different ways of expressing my criterion. With the Grey Cup and Super Bowl, I imagine it's not so much that people believe the Super Bowl came first, but that they think of the Super Bowl as the "main one" and the Grey Cup as the "other one". But with both Heathcliff and Hydrox, I would imagine that many people probably assume they came later than Garfield and Oreo.
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Postby guidedbyalan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:24 pm

skullturfq wrote:Internally, I was wrestling with different ways of expressing my criterion. With the Grey Cup and Super Bowl, I imagine it's not so much that people believe the Super Bowl came first, but that they think of the Super Bowl as the "main one" and the Grey Cup as the "other one". But with both Heathcliff and Hydrox, I would imagine that many people probably assume they came later than Garfield and Oreo.


It's a particularly existence-defining problem for Hydrox, as far as I've read.

It seems to me after a minute of un-scientific thought that there are so many artistic examples of this phenomenon regarding filmmakers and musicians, particularly, that it's astounding. I'll post if I think of a particularly precise one.
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Karma is awesome - Kurosawa on both sides

Postby SMWinnie » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:29 pm

Akira Kurosawa totally ripped off Star Wars and The Magnificent Seven for a couple of low-budget black-and-white movies (The Hidden Fortress and Seven Samurai). Payback comes in a couple of years, with Al Pacino in the title role of a ripoff of one of Kurosawa's masterworks (Ran).
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Postby naurae29 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:45 pm

skullturfq wrote:Not sure what you folks think of this proposed example:

"Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails : "Hurt" by Johnny Cash??


i'm against "bad facts" about who covered who, but prefer the latter by far.
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Postby ArtVark » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:54 pm

The Maltese Falcon (1931) : The Maltese Falcon (1941)
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Postby rockgolf » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:24 pm

St. Elsewhere : E.R.
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Postby Ken Jennings » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:27 pm

Assuming that the original relationship was probably envisioned as "things that actually pre-date the other thing they're widely considered to be derivative of," I don't think I've seen a suggestion yet that really works. Which is weird, because I feel like there are probably a lot of these, just not leaping to mind.
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Postby guidedbyalan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:35 pm

Ken Jennings wrote:Assuming that the original relationship was probably envisioned as "things that actually pre-date the other thing they're widely considered to be derivative of," I don't think I've seen a suggestion yet that really works. Which is weird, because I feel like there are probably a lot of these, just not leaping to mind.


Agreed, it really feels like there must be a significant amount of them that we've thought of before just in the course of a day. I keep thinking something terrifically obvious is going to pop into my head, like "wait a second, Lenin lived 100 years before Marx!"
But nothing...
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Postby Paucle » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:53 pm

Kind of a lame example, but here's something I remember finding out in high school when all my friends were getting on me for liking BG because it was just a SW rip-off:

Glen A. Larson, the creator and executive producer of Battlestar Galactica, conceived of the Battlestar Galactica premise, which he originally called Adam's Ark, during the late 1960s. However, he was unable to find financial backing for his TV series for a number of years.

of course, it was the popularity of Star Wars that gave Universal the courage to risk BG production.
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Postby guidedbyalan » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:59 pm

On topic, mostly unhelpful:

I, of course, used a time machine to "get the idea" of Unseen University from Hogwarts; I don't know what Paul [Kidby, the illustrator] used in this case. Obviously he must have used something.
— Terry Pratchett, on the similarities between Discworld and Harry Potter

I have a scoop for you. I stole his act. I camouflaged it with punchlines, and to really throw people off, I did it before he did.
— Bill Hicks, commenting on similarities between his stand-up comedy routine and Denis Leary's.
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Postby bwouns » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:30 pm

skullturfq wrote:
Mahatma wrote:What about RC : Coca-Cola?

I'm sure there are some out there who actually prefer RC. Possibly.


According to Wikipedia, RC : Coca-Cola doesn't work.

What I actually had in mind was a combination of two criteria. One is a little subjective, but one is very quantifiable.


Perhaps not, but according to something I literally just heard on All Things Considered -- "Tab : Diet Coke" works.
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Postby rjmason » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:03 pm

There are some people out there who believe that the Macintosh operating system is derivative of Windows... or variations on that theme, such as forgetting that Microsoft Word for Macintosh preceded Microsoft Word for Windows.

I hesitate to say that belief is widespread. However, I do think the somewhat-related belief that Bill Gates "invented the PC," or was in some way the father of modern computing, is quite widespread.
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Postby bradluen » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:45 pm

Dave Clark Five : Beatles ?
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Postby grodney » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:22 am

Ken Jennings wrote:Assuming that the original relationship was probably envisioned as "things that actually pre-date the other thing they're widely considered to be derivative of," I don't think I've seen a suggestion yet that really works. Which is weird, because I feel like there are probably a lot of these, just not leaping to mind.


How about Mosaic/Netscape/Firefox : Internet Explorer ??
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Postby grodney » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:32 am

Facts in Five : Scattergories ? There must be other board game examples.
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